Bessarabia - Development

[:FI:Nellip]

Hmm

Castrated is the right word. As I fly the IL2 a lot, I think I will be giving this campaign a miss if it loses it's most effective weapons.........

[Nephris]

Do you prefer non balanced payloads?
The not allowed Il2 weapons destroy a complete column within one flight.
Even remaining canons are able to destroy an PzIVF, aswell as each well placed bomb.

At the end we castrated a bull with 4 balls, remaing 2.
The Il2 is still able to carry up to 6x100Fab, ,different loads of Rockets, and AOs....
Knocking off a single tank with a single bomb can be fun aswell .

[:FI:Nellip]

Or is it blue bias that red loses it's most effective ground attack weapon?

It is your campaign Nephris, so you get to choose, my choice not to take part if I don't like it

[Graf Zahl]

- Which brings me nicely to my last point. Loadout. Will Axis planes have the MK 108 30mm cannon loadout option in Bessarabia?. If not the B24 Liberator might be too strong, if yes the rest of reds bombers will soon be confetti! I have a feeling this is more important than the planes themselves actually.

-I tested the 410a using both the 1MK103 and the BK 37 loadouts one pass was enough each time to down a B-24, and that's a very tough bomber!. With default weapons versus two AI ace La5F's ( they are dumb I know) they always lost. However one removed one engine from the 410 and smoked the other but I still kept flying well enough for several minutes to shoot it down. Mod plane and not quite right frankly as has been found before. It did overheat at least!

Or is it blue bias that red loses it's most effective ground attack weapon?

Come on...

So shooting down a bomber in one pass is evil but destroying 3 tank columns per flight with a plane that is also able to destroy every other plane in the air in one pass is not?
And that is why?



Just take look a the stats.
And even without it's murder cassettes, the Il-2 can blast tanks (at least Panzer IV) with the cannons only. Now given its 30 sec of ammunition, this is surely still by far the most capable tank killer.

[Nephris]

It is your campaign Nephris, so you get to choose, my choice not to take part if I don't like it

Fine by me.
Each planeset got to make compromises in each aspects to get it as balanced as it is, even more in a campaign where the main target is to destroy &stop tank columns. I can understand you from a subjective point of view, but that wont change the attitude on unbalanced weapons.
You were and will always be a welcome player.

[:FI:Gadje]

Zahl-
If-and it might happen one day-four players were in tanks and another player came by in an IL2 and took them all out in one pass that would equate to my point about the 30mm cannon. It's about player enjoyment more than winning. I seriously doubt folk would keep turning up to fly bombers that fast cannon fighters can take out in that same one pass, every time. The AI don't get so upset
Saying that from the same enjoyment point of view I'd be annoyed flying blue that we had been denied all 30mm in weapons. G6 with the nose cannon I can see would fit in. Equally the 110 pilots will feel hard pressed without the big cannons. Sure it can take bombers out but it is pretty slow and vulnerable to fighters in a way the mod plane was not.

Red have dealt with the 30mm in Moscow I can't see why we cant in 1944 Bessarabia within balance. Equally in Russia blue panzers have kept inevitably ploughing forward mission to mission regardless of the wonder weapon AJ 2 cassettes,. Perhaps some candy for both sides might be an idea. Replace a few IL-2's with an earlier model and give them the cassettes?

[Nephris]

Why should blue keep on suffering in carry bomb after bomb to one tank column, awhile red is still in position to just drop one cassette to leave a destroyed column behind. You cant compare Moscow to this, as Moscwo was a development from a small sized coop of 4 players vs AI to a mid sized MDS war, where we
didnt want to made limiting changes to payloads in the middle of the campaign.
Bessarabia is a new one.

I am still at the point of a balanced planeset which means also a balanced payload.

Red now got the fastest and best accelaration plane in a P51, the best turning one in La5f and still the best ground attacker in an Il2 (still if it is loosing its cassettes).

I still cant follow the problem to carry bombs instead to targets.

[:FI:Nellip]

Designing a campaign like this and trying to strike a balance is very difficult, and you have my sympathy Nephris.

The problem from my point of view is that using the AJ cassette, apart from bridge attacks, has been the standard load out for us IL2 pilots since we joined the Moscow campaign. Denying us that for Bessarabia is an issue because we are used to having it! We are all out of practice with bombs

Maybe Gadje has the right idea, and that we have a limited number of IL2's with the AJ load out, three or four per session perhaps, and when they are gone we have to fly another variant?

[:FI:Gadje]

destroying 3 tank columns per flight with a plane that is also able to destroy every other plane in the air in one pass is not?
And that is why?

Last time I tried to use those cassettes I missed and blew myself up Luckily for my ego Mikester did the same.
But really are you saying one IL2 can destroy three columns of tanks? How? OK the cassettes can take out four tanks if in a line but how the others? You can't take anything other than cassettes if you choose them. If one of red has done this S! sir and we really should be winning!

So admittedly I'm crap at groundpounding but I doubt any IL-2 would have allowed me to kill eight tanks at a first attempt as I have just tried in a JU87-G1. Better shooting and it could have been 13. I'm glad I taped it otherwise I would have doubted the ease of it. Not sure what the fuss is about insisting on conventional bombs with this 'bombless' tank killer available.

Regarding the planes that Nephris mentioned. I'd happily swap the La5f for a G2 in a dogfight anyday. Hard choice- the 190's firepower or the extra speed of the lightly armed P51C? and after my test a bunch of Ju-87G-1's cannons over those bloody noob pilot killing cassettes!

Perhaps I need to fly blue

[:FI:Wolfhound]

Hey ,even i will play if the red's get the G2, the FW 190 and the ju87 G1,lets say they were captured but i would also insist on the concrete molded Blenheim and Matilda . maybe for a couple of weeks , the squads should play 6v6 or 8v8 machine matchups and show these guys exactly how our guys can perform if you give them a fair wack, i'd reinstall il2 for that alone

[Graf Zahl]

I seriously doubt folk would keep turning up to fly bombers that fast cannon fighters can take out in that same one pass, every time.

You are aware that this has happened to Ju-88 throughout the Moscow Campaign? They were attacked by Il-2 and downed in seconds. The same happened to Ju-87 and Hs-129.
Still Blue kept using Ju-88, because there was simply no other option to make impact on Red's tank columns.

I know the Iron Gustaf can't be really called a fast fighter plane - but from the perspective of a Ju-88 pilot it's still too fast. Only chance would be to fly fast and high, but there are no tanks up in the sky!

But I'm happy you do not see big problems with the Mk108. And I'm with you in not-wanting the fantasy/what-if/super-project cannons of the Me-410.

Denying us that for Bessarabia is an issue because we are used to having it! We are all out of practice with bombs

Yes. This will definitely need some time to get used to. Bombs are much weaker since 4.11. Even close calls with biggest bombs will leave tanks intact (this is at least true for the german SC-Bombs).
You maybe noticed Blue almost stopped flying Ju-87. This was simply because it turned out SC 500 or even SC 1000 Bombs would seldom destroy tanks if it was not a direct hit.
That's the most important reason for all this fighter-bomber flying. Drop one bomb and race home to get the next...

So admittedly I'm crap at groundpounding but I doubt any IL-2 would have allowed me to kill eight tanks at a first attempt as I have just tried in a JU87-G1.

The Il-2 Type 3 comes with reduced Ptab load and 4 rockets. The Ptabs smoke the first column, the rockets eat half of second one. Than you will have to use your 30 seconds of 23mm ammunition to batter the rest.
Panzer IV will succumb to 23mm fire in 4 of 5 times when attacked in shallow angle from the side. Of course this means every other angle will work too. And attacks from the rear will probably give you a 100 % kill ratio if you hit.
It's just like eating cake.

Probably the later Blue Tanks will put up more resistance, but Blues main tank has nothing against the Il-2.

About the Stuka-G: I still need to try this one on the late Red tanks we will see in this campaign. In my memory this was always a formidable groundpounder.
But Moscow has taught us that the very same gun (Bk.3,7) mounted in the 110 or Hs-129 is almost completely useless against T-34 and KV-1.
So maybe shooting the "double-barrel" of the Stuka will change the results, but considering we will be facing more advanced Red tanks in Bessarabia I have my doubts.

Should it be possible, this would bring some more equality between Red and Blue ground attackers.

Edit:

Red now got the fastest and best accelaration plane in a P51

Hard choice- the 190's firepower or the extra speed of the lightly armed P51C?

I can't do any good in an early P-51. With the P-51-D I can put up some kind of fight, but the early ones are just lacking firepower in my opinion.
Maybe you are able to show me how to fly this thing. You surprised me with the P-40 as well.

Hey ,even i will play if the red's get the G2, the FW 190 and the ju87 G1,lets say they were captured

You can easily join Blue and pretend it's Red.
If it needs to be I'll join the real Reds to keep balance...

Or of course we could give Red the Blue planes and vice versa!

Besides all these jokes I'm sure everybody is able to determine how successful or not a certain type of aircraft is able to perform in our kind of campaign. The stats are the best proof anyone can ask for.

the squads should play 6v6 or 8v8 machine matchups and show these guys exactly how our guys can perform if you give them a fair wack, i'd reinstall il2 for that alone

I would say fighter combat was pretty nicely balanced over Moscow. If you think the progress of this campaign was dictated by numerical superiority - stats will help again.

And yes - please do re-install Il-2 no matter what! It's worth it!


Edit II:

I have just tried in a JU87-G1. Better shooting and it could have been 13.

I just tried the G1 against T34-85, M4A2-76w, ZSU37, Su85 and KV-1.
Looks like the double barrels make all the difference. I don't know why, but results were much better than with Henschel.
Only Su85 and KV-1 were stubborn, the others were almost always a sure kill if attacked from behind.
And even those two (Su85, KV-1) would blow up if attacked often enough and from behind.

However I doubt even a really good shooter could take more than 12 tanks per flight. The Stuka only carries 12 rounds per gun...
Maybe some sharpshooter is able to place the simultaneous shots of his guns on different targets?

The effectiveness of the Stuka compared to the Henschel is quite strange to me. It is the same gun firing an identical round. Maybe something got twisted during the many patches or in a mod?...The Stuka G1 is an old plane while the Henschel as a flyable is only available since 4.11 I think.

[:FI:Armitage]

wow a lot of discussion.

As someone who flew the IL2 a lot in the Moscow war I have to say I would miss the AJ Cassettes a lot. I agree they are an effective weapon against tank columns but in general most people only take out 2-3 tanks due to aiming issues and then spend the next 4-5 minutes trying to use their cannon to remove the other 1-2 tanks. If you look at the mission recordings you often see 2-3 IL2 attacking a tank column and using a combination of AJs and Cannot to fully destroy it.

The first mission last night Sunday 20th south of Ruza was a good example. 4 IL2s trying to destroy a slowly moving tank column with a combination of AJs and cannon. Some of these late german Tanks require considerable time and effort to this the sweet sport with a cannon.

This can lead to target fixation and has lead to numerous IL2 crashes (CFT).

The Il-2 Type 3 comes with reduced Ptab load and 4 rockets. The Ptabs smoke the first column, the rockets eat half of second one. Than you will have to use your 30 seconds of 23mm ammunition to batter the rest.
Panzer IV will succumb to 23mm fire in 4 of 5 times when attacked in shallow angle from the side. Of course this means every other angle will work too. And attacks from the rear will probably give you a 100 % kill ratio if you hit.
It's just like eating cake.

This isn't as easy as it sounds. The rockets might work against a truck convoy but not so good against tanks. Even against a truck convoy I'd probably have just as much success with machine guns as rockets.
I just don't like those rockets. Now the 60lb rockets on a Tempest are in a league of their own...

If you really think the AJs are a great weapon I'm sure the FL wouldn't mind the Moscow campaign as Blue and Blue fly as red!

That's the most important reason for all this fighter-bomber flying. Drop one bomb and race home to get the next...

Thats because Blue doesn't really have a decent ground attack plane to fly although I think the 110 is fairly effective. Just because you don't have a decent ground attack plane doesn't mean you should castrate the Red one.

I flew the test Bessarabia Mission with the various plane loudouts as both Red and Blue and thw selected FW190 is an plane killer in particular against the IL2. A high speed dive and single pass is enough to destroy an IL2 but the FW 190 won't be limited so why limit the IL2?

Maybe Gadje has the right idea, and that we have a limited number of IL2's with the AJ load out, three or four per session perhaps, and when they are gone we have to fly another variant?

I wouldn't mind trying this.

Probably the later Blue Tanks will put up more resistance, but Blues main tank has nothing against the Il-2

Is this not somewhat historically accurate ?

Effective protection of your ground forces should stop the "Uber" IL2 from using their AJs.

In general in the Moscow war both sides were poor at protecting their advancing their ground forces (blue a little worse) often giving the IL2s the freedom to roam behind enemy lines at will. If you allow this to happen then no matter what ground attack plane we fly we will destroy your ground forces.

The Moscow war was early WWII with a blue advantage in the air and ground.

Operation Bessarabia a late WWII war which in theory should see the balance shift towards red.

You are aware that this has happened to Ju-88 throughout the Moscow Campaign? They were attacked by Il-2 and downed in seconds. The same happened to Ju-87 and Hs-129.

Well what were the JU-88s doing down low ? I normally intercepted them at 500m or lower. The JU-88 is a bomber/heavy fighter/dive bomber not a low level ground attack plane. If you are going to come down low and dog fight with an IL2 in JU-88 then you are going to be killed.

Sometimes they were intercepted at 3,000m over our far eastern supply routes but normally without fighter escort so easy prey!

[Nephris]

I still dont get the point , why both parties shouldnt bomb with same weapons.
From my pov it is just fair enough.

What exactly is the problem to bomb with bombs or rockets with an Il2, which blue wouldnt have with bombs?


We asked for the 410 to get a decent ground attacker, which was denied as it could turn into a heavy fighter - fine.
But that means on the other side we need to balance the ground attacking possibilities, which hits the AJ and Ptab, still remianing all AO, all rocket combinations,all Fabs.

We are using PzIVj and PzIVF2 and T34-85/late Shermans, the armory is quiet the same to most mocsow used tanks.
There is no balanced way to use PzV or PzVI vs a red tank.

edit: just did a quick test with the AJ and blasted all PzV.

[:FI:Wolfhound]

"I still dont get the point , why both parties shouldnt bomb with same weapons.
From my pov it is just fair enough."
the answer is give both sides the exact same planeset,same bombload same armour and AA in the interest of fairness,or give the reds a 10 or 20 v 1 advantage in aircraft if you want to be fair ,or if you want the PzIVj and PzIVF2 have them outnumbered 40 or 50 to 1 in fairness, lets be fair to be fair ,lets make the blue Ai novice or medium to be fair ,as 17 ,18 year olds ,come on lets be fair.

[Graf Zahl]

I think most things have been said, but I'll try explain Blue's point a little more...

This is not about 'taking Red's favorite toy'. But it sure is about balancing. Now why is this? I'll try to explain...

First

I agree they are an effective weapon against tank columns but in general most people only take out 2-3 tanks due to aiming issues and then spend the next 4-5 minutes trying to use their cannon to remove the other 1-2 tanks.

Thats because Blue doesn't really have a decent ground attack plane to fly

Well what were the JU-88s doing down low ? I normally intercepted them at 500m or lower. The JU-88 is a bomber/heavy fighter/dive bomber not a low level ground attack plane. If you are going to come down low and dog fight with an IL2 in JU-88 then you are going to be killed.

Armitage, you nicely sum up the problem, yet you do not draw any conclusions.

1. Red destroys 2-3 tanks with with AJ and then kill of the rest of the column with cannon fire in 4-5 mins

No Blue plane could match this. We have only bombs which will need direct or very close hits to kill a tank, regardless of the size. This means with most planes just 1 attack, then return to base and attack again.
Stukas can carry 2 usefull 'drops' of bombs.
Pretty much every other plane only 1.
Stukas would need fighter cover and are unable to destroy soft targets with their puny MG.

Since the size of the bomb is almost irrelevant, fighter-bombers are Blues best option (almost...more below).

110 are great against soft targets, bridges and bombers. Against tanks, they are just as powerful as a 109 JaBo.

So when Red needs one pilot and one flight pus 5 mins on target to destroy a column, Blue will usually have to send in at least 3-4 fighter bombers to do the same job. And even than destruction is far from guaranteed, since bombs became a really fizzy business after 4.11. Often enough, even when attacking in groups we needed to fly home get new bombs. This means 3-4 pilots could destroy maybe 2 columns per mission. If the new where to look for them when the mission starts an nothing unforeseen happens.

2. Stupid Ju-88 flying low and pretend they are ground attackers

Not the cleverest thing one might think. Yet you gave the reason yourself. 'Thats because Blue doesn't really have a decent ground attack plane to fly'
Yep. Ju-88 is the only plane capable of busting multiple tanks with its SC 50 loadouts.
Of course the Junkers could fly at 3000m. But they could also stay at home and have the same impact on the battlefield.
So I think you answered your question 'Well what were the JU-88s doing down low ?' yourself.


Second
I thought it would have been obvious from the last Moscow missions but maybe no body noticed:

Blue "won" (if you want to call it like this) this campaign only because we destroyed the bridges that were needed to bring Red's tank to front line.

Only this. Nothing else. At least in my humble opinion.
O-15, P-11 and the south route like Q-9 or the bridges following westward.
In fact, it is almost impossible for Blue to destroy Red tanks on the move - bombs need at least 5 seconds to detonate after hitting the ground and only direct hits will count. And because it needs multiple attacks (=flights) to destroy them even when standing still we need to buy time for this.

Even though this tactic works, it is not the most fun thing to do. We did not do this to the extreme - just because it was so boring.
The most effective tactic would obviously have been to attack the most rear bridges of Red from the beginning of the campaign until the end. Luckily it did not went this way.

Now if we want to have a fight where actual attacks on tanks count and not tactical supply route bombing (= bridges, bridges,bridges), than we need to get both teams closer together in terms of ground pounding abilities.

In general in the Moscow war both sides were poor at protecting their advancing their ground forces (blue a little worse) often giving the IL2s the freedom to roam behind enemy lines at will.

That's true. Actually I think I flew patrol over our own units maybe once. In our backyard, we just responded on the 'Blue units under attack' messages...and on most of them we didn't even do this.
Because we needed time do transport as many bombs to target one by one as possible.


Third
About 'fighters downing bombers in pass'

I don't really get the fuss here. Almost every fighter over Moscow could do this. Even more will be able to do so over Bessarabia.
Even the the dedicated ground attacker Il-2 can easily do this. Heck...I-16 is able to perform this.

So yes: The Focke-Wulf packs a punch. But so does almost every fighter we are going to use...
P-39 sports a 37mm cannon which I have successfully used to destroy bombers at 500m with one shoot on more than one occasion. Granted...such sniper shots can not be counted on - but the gun is supreme against big and unmaneuverable targets.
P-38 is also quite deadly, beacause all guns are piled up in the nose and will hit the same spot with little ballistic drop over long distances.
La-5F brings Olegs laser Shvaks.
109 is always a good shot even when it is 'only' equipped with the MG151/20 nose gun. Actually I prefer that one for accuracy and ammunition supply.

And so far Red has not used any larger bomber formation that I became aware of. Blue tried this once but because there were no targets for high flying horizontal bombers, we stopped.

All in all, fighters are are bad news for bombers. Who is surprised?


Fourth
...Historically...

Actually i thought we decided not to venture into these dark dungeons...

The Moscow war was early WWII with a blue advantage in the air and ground.
Operation Bessarabia a late WWII war which in theory should see the balance shift towards red.

I fail to see a Red disadvantage over Moscow. Please enlighten me!
Yak-1B, P-39...nice fighters against an also strong opponent, 109-F4. Obviously not historical but fun to fly!
On the ground...I am unsure about the tanks vs. tank outcomes in this campaign. If you know more, master of the stats, please tell me!

the answer is give both sides the exact same planeset,same bombload same armour and AA in the interest of fairness,or give the reds a 10 or 20 v 1 advantage in aircraft if you want to be fair ,or if you want the PzIVj and PzIVF2 have them outnumbered 40 or 50 to 1 in fairness, lets be fair to be fair ,lets make the blue Ai novice or medium to be fair ,as 17 ,18 year olds ,come on lets be fair.

Good Sir, as far as I am aware we never met in skies over Moscow!
What has fairness to do with historical accuracy?

Ok...
Historically, Blue should be a bunch of fucking genocidal Nazis and you guys should play the thankful role of conquering eastern Europe for a glorious dictator while raping everything in your way.
Sorry, I prefer spend my free time with something else than historical role playing. And I have played enough events (usually organized by 'Blue-fanatics') that felt like somebody is living out his ancestors dream.
I don't like that stuff one bit.

Before I get carried away and drift into polemic, I'll try to point out some others difficulties about historical accuracy:

The rockets might work against a truck convoy but not so good against tanks. Even against a truck convoy I'd probably have just as much success with machine guns as rockets.
I just don't like those rockets. Now the 60lb rockets on a Tempest are in a league of their own...

Fire the rockets below 50m to target. Hit means a kill. If the target fills your view, you almost never miss.
Historically this rockets where shit. But Oleg didn't think so. Therefore those rockets carrying 1 puny kilogram of explosives easily kill every tank. In real life the hat troubles with light tanks and where mostly only effective against soft targets. It's in the Russian wiki to the BRS-132.
Same is true for the YVa 23mm cannon. there was a reason they replaced it with a 37mm cannon. Not because it destroyed everything it hit, obviously.

And the Russian wiki even states the Germans tanks where fitted with some kind of countermeasure against the the PtAB which proved to be quite successful. I am running out of time now, but I think my point is clear:
Historical discussions lead to nothing. Even if somebody somehow is able to find the truth, the result is surely not fun inspiring for both sides. But fun is the whole purpose of our online war in my opinion...

That was way more than I wanted to post...

Good Night!

GZ