Upgrade Q

Questions and solutions for flight sim related problems
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:FI:Up-n-at-'em
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Upgrade Q

Post by :FI:Up-n-at-'em » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:45 pm

Ok age old dilema.. thinking of a new system but also thinking about waiting for BoB.

Considering going for a cheaper upgrade in the meantime, so
who can run PF on Perfect or atleast excellant at 1024 & what hardware are you using ?

I'm thinking I might be able to replace mobo, ram & vid card for a semi reasonable amount to allow me to happily fly for another year or so.

Currently have a
P4 1.7
Asus P4TE
768 mb Rambus ramm :cry:
GE Ti4400

mobo upgrade is limited to 2.4 400 mhz Fsb -kinda hard to find & may not be much of an improvement.

don't know if this would be agood idea or not, but would save me getting a new case/ power supply/ PCI-E vid card etc
Since i'm thinking cheap deadend hardware would be ok.

Kinda bummed on running everything at medium & limitting the action sometimes, but feel abit guilty going out & spending alot on a new system the I'll want to replace in 2 or 3 years. (i've had this one for 3 now)

Ok, let the Blue light Special begin.
& any info at all appreciated.

Cheers
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Post by Deathsledge » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:44 am

yep Rambus is pretty pricey, you could get ATI's 9800 pro fairly reasonable now days, that would be a big help. ;)
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Why not just get a whole new machine?

Post by :FI:Heloego » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:30 am

I hear KMart is selling one now, and the kids at Headstart think it's a good one! :)


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Post by :FI:Snoop Baron » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:11 am

I'd check out the UBI forums and ask the guys there, but I'd say a better graphics card might be a good choice. I agree with you I also don't want to make any major upgrades until BoB.

Snoop
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Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:55 pm

For BOB I think a new system will definitely be required if one wants to play it with high settings.

So putting that aside for the moment, consider both a CPU upgrade and a video card upgrade (will your power supply also need to be upgraded for the card mate?).

IL-2 is really demanding on the CPU. I personally think a P4 around 3 GHz or better is a good target to shoot for in this department. Obviously price is especially important to consider since you may decide to buy a new system next year or so. Can you manage an upgrade to mid 2 GHz or better mate?

Of course a better video card should be seriously considered too. I just believe even with a better card your system's performance will be held back with a CPU below 2 GHz. Again can you get a CPU upgrade for a reasonable price?

One final note is with regards to balance. Try to resist the urge to buy too high-end of a video card unless your CPU (upgrade?) can match. A card you might want to check out is the BFG GeForce 6600 GT OC card here - http://www.bfgtech.com/6600GT.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . If you can afford a little more, and you upgrade the CPU, I am personally looking at the BFG GeForce 6800 GT OC here - http://www.bfgtech.com/6800GTOC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

With regards to card manufacturers, I think both companies are doing a good job with their cards. However, despite my enjoyment with the ATI line, I personally feel most games work better with nVidia. Oleg in fact has recently stated this to be the case for IL-2.

Not interested in starting a "video card war," but nVidia is where I'm heading. Plus as an upgrade, their cards are less expensive and seem to be outscoring ATI cards for popular games (even though ATI cards sometimes have better specs :shock: ).

Now let's talk about the new PCI systems and how we will be strapping 2 6800 ultra + cards into those bad boys! ;)

TactS!
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Post by :FI:Up-n-at-'em » Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:54 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys!
I'm debating getting a new system (for my B-day) but feeling a bit guilty about it & thinking Gee once BoB comes out I'm gonna start wanting evennewer stuff. Of Course I'm not sure when BoB will actually be realeased.

The Best CPU my Mobo will handle is a 2.4 , as for upgrading the vid card that would be nice but...

AGP seems to be dying with PCI-E the next thing.

Trying to weigh the 2 choices,
1. upgrade a bit & wait to build new stuff for BoB
2. Go ahead & get a nice system now, that I hope will be fairly upgradeable. AMD 939pin & PCI-E ( maybe with SLI) Was looking at the GeForce 6600 vid card.

Problem is lately I'm really unhappy with trying to play FB/PF on my system. But if i was cash smart I could take off a year then buy the system I'm thinking of now for half the price probably. But right now FB/PF is about my only source of entertainment so maybe it's ok to spend the money, but on the other hand..... :beer:

OK, OK I'm better now!

Seriously tho if I upgrade I'm gonna get a good power supply & case with a lot of fans, stuff I can keep for a while I hope.
Any way the more info the better!
Mostly comes down to a spending decision...

(That's why I'm thinking of doing it while the wifey is away in Dallas for 10 days of training.....plus what else am i gonna do with myself then if not build a new 'puter? )

Cheerios!
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Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:35 pm

Well first let me tell you that I'M telling the wife so nothing for you! :D

Seriously mate it's your money and your decision. Even if I had the funds right now for a new system, I would be forced to buy a machine with this emerging new PCI technology at a very high price to make sure it had some life.

Given BOB will not be out for at least a year (or worst two weeks ;) ) what you could have bought at that time compared to now will make you cry (and rightly so your wife would say :D ). If you're anything like me (and let's hope not ;) ) you want the best now, what with folks like Dutchman and Kepp/Menace walking around with their awesome new rigs.

However, once BOB is released (or nearly so) the emerging technology will be better established (less expensive), and we will know much better what we will need to run it.

Until then, you have a whole year (or more IMO) to enjoy your current gaming/computing. A reasonable upgrade could see a good investment until then. Plus depending on how much you upgrade, you may find yourself with a seconday machine that still can play most games decently (do you have children or a favourite nephew/niece?)

A CPU upgrade to P 2.4 GHz with either of those two cards (or compatible ATI versions) I mentioned would certainly allow you to play IL-2 on Excellent with smooth performance. I think your RAM is good, especially if you strip down your OS and background programs.

It all comes down to shopping around for the best prices, and having a little patience. ;) Last one in gets the best system - problem with computers is there's never a "last time" to jump in. :(

BTW AGP cards are still great gaming solutions. While certainly PCI will be the future, now is the time for us with slightly older machines to really capitalize on AGP card falling prices.

Be interested in what you decide, and if you do upgrade what you were able to do.

Best regards,
Tact - "waiting for his monster system next year" - S!
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Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:16 am

You might find this article interesting with regards to balancing your video upgrade with your CPU - http://www.guru3d.com/article/article/136/1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

"Right now I look at it this way, up-to a 3000 MHz you simply are better suited with a Radeon x800 Pro or GeForce 6800 GT. If you have a faster than 3 GHz (3000+) system and want the best of the best, then and only then I can recommend you the GeForce 6800 Ultra or the Radeon x800 XT. That system would be ridiculously expensive though and you need to consider whether that's worth all that hard earned dough."
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U&AE said...

Post by :FI:Heloego » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:18 am

...
Seriously tho if I upgrade I'm gonna get a good power supply & case with a lot of fans,
The quantity of fans is not as important as size.
Larger fans move as much air but are MUCH quieter! find a couple of 120mm fans and that should be enough to keep your case relatively cool.
If you can up-size your CPU fan do that, too!

Cost will be not much different than with smaller fans, but the quiet is definitely worth it.
...and wear your feckin' mask!!!!! :x
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Post by :FI:Up-n-at-'em » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:35 pm

Good stuff guys, Thanks!

Well guess i'll have to see what it would cost me for a better cpu & AGP card, then figure how long that would last. Excellant settings does sound good.

And i'd been thinking it would be interesting to make up a list of components i'd like & cost then check on them again in a year to see how much they dropped.

The Fan info is very good Helo, ---hey did you know there's only a one letter difference between Helo & Help! & that the 2 letters are side by side on the keyboard ?
(maybe it's cause the whirly thingie belongs up front)

anyway not a big fan of noises, er .



Well I'll let ya know, & probably be back with more questions.

Cornflakes,
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Help...

Post by :FI:Heloego » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:42 am

..., yes I definitely need help!

What?

No, I don't need help!

Yes, you do!

Do not!

Do!

Do not!

(We interrupt this programming to advise of a debilitating disease just Do!...Do not!...Do!...Do not!...)
...and wear your feckin' mask!!!!! :x
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to save Falcon the bother

Post by :FI:Spitsfire » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:53 am

;)
Title: Argument Sketch
From: Monty Python's Flying Circus
Transcribed By: unknown


A man walks into an office.

Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.
Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?
Man: No, this is my first time.
Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.
Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No.
Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.
Man: Thank you.

He enters room 12.

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS
STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh...Sorry...
A: Not at all!
A: (under his breath) stupid git.

The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You didn't!
O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
O: Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a
proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just
the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!

The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.

O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five
minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you...
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I-dbct-fd-tq! I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH!
Gotcha!
O: No you haven't!
M: Yes I have!
If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily.
I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
M: I've had enough of this!
O: No you haven't.
(door slam)
Image
Winner of the FIS pink n'shiney,
"Gee winkies! I've been here over a year
and am still completely normal,
pookey-pookey-pookey." Award!
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Post by :FI:Up-n-at-'em » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:57 pm

:lol:

That scetch is great but i can't imagine being the guy who typed it out.

I'd be like :
You did !
You didn't!
You did!
You get the idea.....

Ok new tech Q:

Audigy sound cards. I understand that atleast some have a chip which takes a little of the sound load off of the cpu. Do you know If all of the Audigy 2 s are like this ? Or is it just the ZS series ,,, Anything to not get/ stay away from/ be verry verry quiet we're hunting wabbits ?
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Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:28 pm

Up-n-at-'em I saw your recent post concerning BOB about ordering expensive computer parts in the middle of night while the wife sleeps. Sad, real men like me order grossly over-priced hard to find Dell compatible components during daytime, while the wifey is away from the house for a couple of minutes. ;)

I have decided that my upgrade will include:

Intel P4 2.8 GHz to Intel P4 3.06 GHz - sadly maximum my mobo will support (of course I need to also purchase a new heatsink :? )

ATI Radeon 9700 TX video card to GeForce 6800 GT OC 256 MB video card (of course I need to also purchase a new psu :? )

So far I have ordered the psu, CPU and heatsink. Once they arrive, and the Microsoft software I mentioned previously, I will then grab my video card, install, re-format, and tweak until my improved system coughs. :badgrin:

Look forward to hearing if/what you upgrade to mate, and if your wife catches you! So far so good for me. :lol:

TactS!
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It's Finally Done!

Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:50 pm

Just a follow up to my last post :FI:Up-n-at-'em (and other interested mates), I finally had the opportunity to undertake my upgrade over the Easter long weekend.

I previously mentioned my main goal was to max out the CPU for my Dell Dimension 8250. This upgrade involved a P4 3.06 HT Northwood chip (was previously a 2.8 GHz chip - not a significant upgrade but better balance for the video card). In order to accomplish this upgrade I had to (well wanted to be safe) upgrade the CPU blower/fan. I was able to re-use the existing heatsink and clips.

I did end up purchasing the BFG 6800 GT OC (nVIDIA) card with 256 MB. This replaced my trusty ATI 9700 TX card but required a new psu, which went from 250W to 425W. Had to order this psu unit from PC Power & Cooling in California in order to properly fit my Dell.

So now my aging system has been given a little more useful life (well until BOB :? ) -

Dell Dimension 8250
Pentium 4 3.06 GHz HT
1 GB RDRAM
BFG 6800 GT OC 256 MB video card
Audigy 2 Sound Card.

--------------------

I also partitioned my hard disk for the first time - C: Windows XP Home/D: Static Swap File/E: Games/F: Applications/G: Documents/H: Storage & Backup .

Did a ton of tweaking, so much so that Billy Gates personally called me and begged me to leave something active in his crappy OS. :D

Switched to Firefox at home for my surfing (sorry Billy).

I now have the 2003 Professional suite of Microsoft products (Word, Excel, Outlook, and FrontPage). Looking forward to creating a real Webpage with FrontPage - would be cool for ongoing campaigns too (TacticalS! mumbles darn napier thinks he's the only one who can make great campaign sites ;) ). Also have 2005 versions of Encarta Deluxe and Picture It! Plus.

--------------------

As for gaming, the system can now play CoD:UO with maximum game and video card settings at 85 fps (maximum - refresh rate). Going to see how this really translates online when TacticalMatt or myself joins Dutchman's server in the near future. Of course CoD is a beautiful-looking game, but is based on an older engine so getting this to work at these settings is not that surprising.

I'm finally back to Perfect Mode with IL-2! Using 1024x768 32-bit, Perfect, 2xQ AA (supposedly similar to 4x mode), Water 1 (could be 2 but really don't see the difference of wavy reflections at 4,000 metres ;) ), and Forest 2 - was getting in the Normandy campaign looking ahead in cockpit -

45 fps @ take-off
nearly 60 fps @ 500 metres over water
approaching 70 @ 1,000 metres over water

Given my CPU (as compared to a mid 3GHz AMD chip) I was surprised at how good my system performed. A noticeable improvement can be achieved for the nVIDIA card using video compression (S3TC). Mirrors still result in a frame rate hit of @5-10fps.

Still tweaking a little and might increase some eye-candy a bit more tonight.

----------

Well, could go on (and on :lol: ) but happy so far. Everything went smoothly; even had the wife helping out (and she hardly ever uses the machine). Of course all this stuff only cost $500 - at least officially (mom's the word!). I thought the psu would be tricky but it ended up be rather easy (even for me :) ). The new card certainly generates a lot of heat.

Anyway, still tweaking the system and the games. Hope to be flying/snipering online soon.

Regards,
TactS!
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