Formation flying?

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:FI:Snaphoo
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Formation flying?

Post by :FI:Snaphoo » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:31 am

What is it good for? Really... I'm asking as someone who's always marvelled at people who could fly, in a sim or real air, at a constant speed and at a certain distance from a few other fellow flyers in some sort of pattern or formation.

But...

Is there a reason for any of this tactically speaking? I mean, I know with the B-17, they had the Box and that was a defensive formation. But most fighters only had fixed weaponry, so what good would a Vic formation have versus an Echelon Left (or Right)? Or any of the other formations that are in existance and/or in the sim?

Was it just so that the Flight Lead, whoever that guy might be, could keep track of his flight? To maintain flight discipline? To provide focus (on the lead) during long flights?

These questions have always been in the back of my mind when I fly in the virtual skies. Mostly because I'm so bad at it, I can't help but wonder if I were to improve, would it help me?

Next question: How do I improve? (aside from the obvious; to practice)

I'm guessing that there are special things that need to be done to fly at a constant speed, that I don't know, or have forgotten in the jumble that has become my life. Are there any sites or books that I could read to give me a clue on how to fly at a constant speed?

After that, I would imagine that the next step would be to keep an eye on the leader or if I'm not the 2 man, to keep an eye on the next guy toward the leader. But that's a guess based loosely on pictures and documentaries that I've seen on the subject of flying in formation...

I can't think of any more questions or supposin's at this time...

I'll get back to ya if I think of somethin' else...

Snaph...
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Post by :FI:Heloego » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:04 am

Is there a reason for any of this tactically speaking?
The simple answer is "Yes", as Tactical flying increases chances of both surviving a mission and accomplishing your objective. The particular formation (Vee/Echelon/Finger Four) seems more to be by group preference rather than based on any particular advantage of that formation.

For example:
Either of the Echelon formations will give each of the "trailing" aircraft a better chance of protecting the six of the aircraft immediately leading him.
A "Finger Four" prevents an enemy from successively removing all the flight in one pass.
The "Loose Deuce" allows an exceptional method of coverage for an element both on the defensive and on the attack.
Carrots are supposed to be good for the eyes. (Hey! Bunnies like 'em, so they can't be all that bad. :) )

Keep in mind that Formation Flying does not mean all aircraft/elements must be within feet/meters of each other. I'll leave that kind of flying to the nuts who are into syncronised aerobatics! That shit's dangerous! :)
Our practice sessions with Blue2 taught us that a looser formation allowed us to not only keep a better eye on our mates, but allowed us a better feel for matching aircraft speeds.

Speaking of matching speeds...
Begin by adjusting your Prop Pitch to get fairly close, and then use your throttle.

Make no mistake. Tight formations are a real bitch and take a lot of concentration and practice. But ,again, they're only good for Air Shows.
I prefer to stand off approx. .3/.4km. No collisions and better buddy coverage.

There are several good books out there about tactics that include formation flying. Keep reading, but remember there is no substitute for practice.

Think I'll have another carrot. :)
...and wear your feckin' mask!!!!! :x
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Post by :FI:Sneaky_Russian » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:48 pm

Apparently the V formation (as used by geese etc. and adopted by the RAF) does offer aerodynamic advantages. Depending on mission and circumstances;Finger 4, line abreast or trail would all be better tactically.

I guess the biggest advantage in Il2 is that youll be mistaken for AI :badgrin:
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Post by :FI:Noter » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:28 am

Formation flying does have an advantage, just ask the guy who's at the end of several planes in trail. We would always end up in a trail formation on the way to our mission, then once the bandits were spotted it was everyman for himself. Those that were good did ok, most of of us didn't fair as well.

We've moved on to the line abreast this allows us to keep an eye on each others six and be in a good position to defend a bounce. It also gives a nice offensive ability with bracketing and such.

One of the biggest keys that Blue showed us was the lead giving a constant heading and speed. This was a huge help. Personally I'm not concerned with prop pitch settings or power settings our missions don't last long enough that we worry about our fuel. If I know the speed and direction to fly even if I lose sight of the lead we'll still end up right around each other. Letting each other know that you no longer have sight is very important it lets you keep touch and toghether before things get too far out of whack.

Close in formation requires you to not look out the cockpit except at your lead so your SA is toast with tight formations. It looks great, but tactically it doesn't do much. Better to stay .5- 1km of each other and have that mutual support and not worry about looking good while flying.
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Post by :FI:TacticalS! » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:31 am

Or how about this answer - Formation Flying is completely a WASTE of time if folks don't take advantage of what it offers the flight when combat occurs. ;)

I think some folks look at formation flying in isolation to combat. I know we have been talking about it for ages in Historic Encounters, because it takes so long to implement. Now that we are getting better we are finally moving into how to take advantage of say a line abreast merge with bracketing. Last session because my wingman and I were close, we quickly brought a Mosquito down with a welded-wing single pass.

In short, formation flying provides benefits for combat. If it didn't we would be wasting our time. Come join us in H.E. soon mate as we continue to learn this exciting part of teamwork! ^:)
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Post by :FI:Snaphoo » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:31 am

Interesting answers all. Many thanks... I've always thought it held some sort of benefit, otherwise it wouldn't have been used for as long as they have. I also found interest in the number of answers concerning tight formations. They are fun to look at, and I figured that their only real use was over an airshow. I was more wondering about the formations themselves and how they related to SA and covering your wings 6. I think I learned a good bit from this thread as all were extremely valid answers and very well put. I'll have to start practicing level constant flying and constant speed before I go out with the HE crowd again, it sounds like I'm behind the curve again... :(

Ah well... that's what I get for taking 3 months off from virtual flying...

I recently did my first carrier take off in probably 5 months... eventually I'll get to the point that I'll fly with a semi-sorta-almost-confidence that I was at before...

In time...

Thanks again for the answers all!

^:)

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Post by :FI:Noter » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:24 pm

I'll have to start practicing level constant flying and constant speed before I go out with the HE crowd again, it sounds like I'm behind the curve again...
Don't worry about that, the talking is still much better than the implementation. We are working at it all the time.

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Terrific answers, guys!

Post by :FI:Blue2 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:29 pm

Looks like you boys are trainable after all. Who'da believed it? :lol:

Glad you asked about this, Snaph. Those were great questions, & I'm sure you're not the only one who'll benefit from this thread. That "mutual benefit" thing may be the best thing about asking questions in the first place.

Along with the very good reasons for using the more widely-spread formations, there are excellent reasons for using the tight ones IRL, too... but some just don't apply as much or as often in our sim. I'll save most of that for another time, but one example is fingertip. Two pressing reason for a military pilot to learn this one are weather and battle damage, especially when the two are combined. Here's a scenario.
There you are, RTB in your P-40E after nicely beating up a German convoy just west of the Mareth Line. You're almost winchester, and fuel is just above bingo. Worse yet, that 109 that caught you pulling up from your 2nd strafing pass put a 20mm shell & at least four 7.9mm slugs through your canopy. While he fortunately missed you, your instruments weren't so lucky. The fuel gage, pressure meters, engine temp and manifold pressure seem OK, but the rest - compass and altimeter included - are gone or highly suspect. Now at 12000' with a good motor, you're again fortunate because your wingman has managed to stay with you successfully on this, his 3rd mission in theater. But the worst may still lie ahead: the swirling clouds of a sandstorm shroud all landmarks east of the big wadi, as far as your eyes can see. Even the coastline is invisible. Your only chance at finding your way home, much less flying a successful radio beacon approach, lies with passing the lead to this capable youngster next to you, & latching yourself closely onto his wing as he reaches the proper course & starts down through the haze below.
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Post by Nightcat » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:32 pm

Random things that come to mind about formation flying.

It's pretty...

Its a good way to learn to fly your aircraft rather then it fly you...

Nice to know exactly where your wingman is for once...

From afar like in top gun, the migs used it to look like one aircraft - and that works in il-2 also...

Aerodynamics...

Bomber formations for defensive gunnery advantages..

Attacking targets from one side is easier then from all, take into account bomb blasts and how many :FI: members it killed last year...

Just a few that spring to mind after a long day and little coffee..

Oh women love a guy who can fly in formation !

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Post by :FI:Sneaky_Russian » Fri May 11, 2007 5:34 pm

from http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol016dt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On 18th September, 1939, he was posted to No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron Auxiliary Air Force, which had been formed on 1st November, 1938, for bombing, with Hinds, Tutors and Avro 504N's. When he arrived, however, the Squadron had Gauntlets, Tutors and Battles. He flew his first Gauntlet, serial K5285, from Doncaster Racecourse (where the Squadron was based) on a local reconnaissance. He also flew Tutors and Battles with the Squadron before being posted to No.12 Group Ferry Pool, where he spent most of his time ferrying Gladiators, and practising Fighter Attacks 1 to 5. These were types of formation attacks against unescorted bombers on which squadron training was then based, and they had been worked out by the Air Fighting Development Unit. For example, Fighter Attack No. 3 was the prescribed drill when two sections of fighters met three bombers; these attacks were complicated and time-wasting and all were based on tight V-shaped formations (vics) opening fire together. They were useless for air fighting, and many good pilots heard as their last words "Fighter Attack Number so-and-so - Go" and were then killed. We eventually adopted the German "schwarme" formation which consisted of two pairs, and called it a "finger four", because the aircraft flew in positions corresponding to the fingertips seen in plan view, and suitably stepped up. This formation was loose and manoeuvrable and completely replaced the Fighter Attacks scheme, with great success.

Albert Lewis also flew Tutors at the Ferry Pool before being posted, on 16th December, 1939, to No.504 "City of Nottingham" Squadron, at Debden. The Squadron was equipped with Hurricanes, and on 17th December, he flew the dual Magister, serial L2468, with one of the famous Beamish brothers, Victor, who was the Squadron Commander. On Boxing Day, he flew his first Hurricane, serial L1944, lettered E, on circuits and bumps, and made more training flights from Duxford and Debden, and then from Martlesham Heath.

On 30th January, 1940, he flew Hurricane L1951, lettered L, on a solo trawler patrol, and L1957, lettered Q, on a shipping patrol with Green Section on 11th February, and made his first contact with the enemy, in the shape of a Blohm und Voss long-range seaplane. Mention of Green Section may call for a word of explanation. In early 1940 the fighter squadron of 12 aircraft was organised into two flights, subdivided for air combat into two sections each. The aerial formations were as follows:

"A" Flight: +++ No. 1 Section - Red
+++ No.2 Section - Yellow
"B" Flight: +++ No.3 Section - Blue
+++ No.4 Section - Green.


The vics were still being flown, as finger four had not yet been adopted, and the formation leader, when he spotted the enemy bombers approaching ahead and to a flank ordered the sections astern, and when they fell into two vics, one behind the other, the section leaders then ordered "Line astern, go" and the formation then formed a long line in single file, which was a convenient formation for a turn-in attack. Having turned and got astern of and slightly below the bombers, the leader then brought his squadron into vics astern in readiness for the attack.
Still be nice to practice some "tight" stuff
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Training video - formation

Post by :FI:Sneaky_Russian » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:28 am

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"The marksman hitteth the target partly by pulling, partly by letting go. The boatsman reacheth the landing partly by pulling, partly by letting go." (Egyptian proverb)
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Post by :FI:Murph » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:55 pm

Great video! Highly recommended.
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Post by Phoenix9 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:53 pm

Very nice vid!

I fly with the Virtual Red Arrows and I think flying in tight formations is great fun!

I remember reading or seeing something about the use of tight formation flying. It was the radar detection. 2 or 3 planes flying together in a tight formation look like 1 on an old WW2 radar screen.

To keep formation, you have to make smal adjustments to your throttle and stick ALL THE TIME.
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